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james
post Feb 23 2006, 01:08 PM
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Here's a question for you:
QUOTE
"A plane is standing on a runway that can move (some sort of band conveyer). The plane moves in one direction, while the conveyer moves in the opposite direction. This conveyer has a control system that tracks the plane speed and tunes the speed of the conveyer to be exactly the same (but in the opposite direction). Can the plane take off?"


A couple of links discussing it (and some funny rationalizations for peoples incorrect assumptions):
www.kottke.org/06/02/plane-conveyor-belt
www.straightdope.com/columns/060203.html


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james
post Feb 24 2006, 02:40 PM
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The planes lift is certainly not just being caused by air being forced under it and lifting it up - at least not in the sense that I think you wrote it (Jamie) - but I may have misinterpreted your explanation.

The wing is affectively 2 curved surfaces (the top and the bottom of the wing), the top is longer (it's a convex curve) and the bottom is shorter (a concave shape). The shape and the angle of attack of the wing causes the air to flow faster above the wing than below, and so the pressure above the wing is less than below the wing (Bernoulli's principle, relating to the pressure of air to its local velocity). This pressure difference causes a force, called lift that acts at right angles to the air-flow. Also both the upper and lower surfaces of a wing produces lift by deflecting air downward, which propels the flying body upward with an equal and opposite force (Newton's Third Law).

Going back to another point about flaps (BAHH!) -
QUOTE
Flaps are hinged surfaces on the trailing edge of an airplane wing which, when deployed, increase the lift (and drag) of a wing by changing the camber of the airfoil. They are usually used while landing to allow the aircraft to fly more slowly and to steepen the approach to the landing site.


So flaps only increase the properties of the wing to help give lift at lower speeds for control at take-off and landing, they aren't the sole reason planes take off (again I may have misinterpreted Paul's earlier post about flaps)


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"We are number one, all others are number two or lower!" - The Sphinx, Mystery Men

"A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without bricks tied to its head" - annon

"What a terrible thing to have lost one's mind. Or not to have a mind at all. How true that is." - Dan Quayle

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Posts in this topic
james   Brainteaser   Feb 23 2006, 01:08 PM
camsmith   Before I look up the links... Yes it can.   Feb 23 2006, 01:21 PM
james   Anyone else?   Feb 23 2006, 02:07 PM
paul   My initial thought is a big no! I can explain...   Feb 23 2006, 03:33 PM
james   Fire away! - Show your workings out and the ex...   Feb 23 2006, 04:39 PM
womble   erm quick change of mind after new logical suggest...   Feb 23 2006, 04:52 PM
camsmith   OK... My very first thought was no, but then I t...   Feb 23 2006, 04:57 PM
womble   hmmm yeah that actually sounds about it yeah that ...   Feb 23 2006, 05:14 PM
james   Yeah that's exactly it - I think what makes us...   Feb 23 2006, 05:25 PM
Sam   This is Paul - Can't be arsed to log out then ...   Feb 23 2006, 08:12 PM
Egg Designer   therefore Paul your answer is no, as the engines p...   Feb 24 2006, 12:45 AM
paul   Hence my statement of ' My initial thought is ...   Feb 24 2006, 07:46 AM
Egg Designer   ahh yes! will read closer next time, it was la...   Feb 24 2006, 08:36 AM
quaker   no it wont take off , paul has it almost right ( ...   Feb 24 2006, 09:19 AM
james   Yes it will :biggrin: Think of it like this - h...   Feb 24 2006, 10:14 AM
paul   No it wont now quiet the lot of you   Feb 24 2006, 01:35 PM
camsmith   Why, did you put the parking brake on? :biggrin: ...   Feb 24 2006, 01:55 PM
jamie   The plane aint going anywhere (until you turn off...   Feb 24 2006, 02:26 PM
james   Ok how about a different approach: Imagine you co...   Feb 24 2006, 02:31 PM
jamie   Ok how about a different approach: Imagine you c...   Feb 24 2006, 03:16 PM
camsmith   Alternatively, think about a matchbox car (I'm...   Feb 24 2006, 02:37 PM
womble   I would agree with camsmith on this one. Planes do...   Feb 24 2006, 02:50 PM
Emily   I am ment to know the answer to this question havi...   Feb 24 2006, 03:16 PM
camsmith   and i dont agree with the matchbox thing the mat...   Feb 24 2006, 03:26 PM
Emily   and the argument suggests that no matter how fast ...   Feb 24 2006, 03:17 PM
jamie   James/ cam are you saying that at the exact point ...   Feb 24 2006, 03:23 PM
jamie   which was my point. AIRSPEED, not converyer speed   Feb 24 2006, 03:30 PM
camsmith   The running on a treadmill is again not a fair com...   Feb 24 2006, 03:30 PM
jamie   If the planes 'speed' is being matched and...   Feb 24 2006, 03:34 PM
camsmith   If the planes 'speed' is being matched an...   Feb 24 2006, 03:36 PM
james   Another version to help you visualise the solution...   Feb 24 2006, 03:43 PM
jamie   I think you may need to read the first post again ...   Feb 24 2006, 03:45 PM
Emily   can we leave out that plane taking off, we all kno...   Feb 24 2006, 03:51 PM
james   J - you are not understanding the difference betwe...   Feb 24 2006, 03:56 PM
Emily   i cant even think if a way to explain it but as i...   Feb 24 2006, 03:57 PM
camsmith   It's all about relative speeds... A car's...   Feb 24 2006, 03:58 PM
james   No worries hun (in case anyone wonders what we are...   Feb 24 2006, 04:00 PM
Emily   we're about to have another now that you have ...   Feb 24 2006, 04:02 PM
Doctor   My brain hurts :confused: I took one look at th...   Feb 24 2006, 04:06 PM
camsmith   I reckon we should use the treadmill, rollerblades...   Feb 24 2006, 04:18 PM
jamie   I dont feel confused, I just think youre all wrong...   Feb 24 2006, 05:13 PM
paul   A plane cannot take off without air moving over th...   Feb 25 2006, 08:20 PM
Emily   will you all LISTEN and STOP talking about the blo...   Feb 26 2006, 12:23 PM
quaker   computer says no   Feb 27 2006, 01:09 PM
Janette   *cough*   Feb 27 2006, 01:31 PM
Egg Designer   For the love of God! Cam - read the first pos...   Feb 28 2006, 07:33 AM
camsmith   For the love of God! Cam - read the first po...   Feb 28 2006, 10:43 AM
womble   Ok this is a conversation I had from a colleague t...   Feb 28 2006, 09:19 AM
james   Rory - I've run out of ways to explain how you...   Feb 28 2006, 09:29 AM
Emily   can i ask the everyone read my post about the whee...   Feb 28 2006, 09:36 AM
womble   Yeah id guess that close to how it works Em. As lo...   Feb 28 2006, 09:44 AM
james   I don't understand that post Mike - on a freew...   Feb 28 2006, 10:09 AM
womble   My answer was in 2 parts, one being with real phys...   Feb 28 2006, 10:16 AM
james   Well yeah I understand what you are saying but as ...   Feb 28 2006, 10:48 AM
womble   Yay you got it, its hypotheticaly what would need ...   Feb 28 2006, 10:55 AM
paul   Anyone see the footie last night?????   Feb 28 2006, 03:47 PM
womble   I bet all you saw was wedding books! :biggrin...   Feb 28 2006, 04:57 PM
quaker   big stick immenent :ph34r:   Feb 28 2006, 05:59 PM
Egg Designer   OK, I understand that forward thrust in the real w...   Mar 1 2006, 08:37 AM
james   And therein lies the rub - nowhere in the question...   Mar 1 2006, 10:39 AM


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